Business of the House.

– in the House of Commons am ar 2 Gorffennaf 1925.

Danfonwch hysbysiad imi am ddadleuon fel hyn

Photo of Mr Ramsay Macdonald Mr Ramsay Macdonald , Aberafan

Can the Foreign Secretary say what business will be taken next week?

Photo of Mr Austen Chamberlain Mr Austen Chamberlain , Birmingham West

On Monday, we shall take the Board of Trade Vote. After 11 o'clock we hope the House will be willing to give, without any prolonged discussion, the Second Reading of the Mining Industry (Welfare Fund) Bill. We understand that this is a Bill which is practically an agreed Bill, and we hope, without any undue demands on the Members, that it may be taken after 11 o'clock.

On Tuesday, we propose to take the Second Reading of the Unemployment Insurance Bill.

Wednesday: Supply—Ministry of Labour Vote.

Thursday: Supply—India Office Vote.

Friday: Unemployment Insurance Money Resolution Committee, and other Orders to be announced later.

Photo of Mr Ramsay Macdonald Mr Ramsay Macdonald , Aberafan

In regard to the business on Tuesday, the Second Reading of the Unemployment Insurance Bill—I must apologise for not having given private notice of this question—do not the Government take the view that it is necessary that we should have an actuarial report upon this Bill, because so much depends upon the actuarial estimates as to what effect the Bill has upon the position of the fund. Would the Government be good enough to circulate an actuarial report on this Bill before we discuss it on Tuesday?

Photo of Mr Austen Chamberlain Mr Austen Chamberlain , Birmingham West

I have not been personally informed, but I understand from my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour (Mr. Betterton) that an actuarial report will be published before the debate.

Photo of Mr Ramsay Macdonald Mr Ramsay Macdonald , Aberafan

Can we have it on Monday?

Photo of Mr Austen Chamberlain Mr Austen Chamberlain , Birmingham West

My hon. Friend will undertake to do his best to expedite the publication for Monday.

Photo of Mr David Lloyd George Mr David Lloyd George , Caernarvon District of Boroughs

Would it be possible to get some statement of that kind before we discuss the contributions under the Pensions Bill? It seems to me impossible for us to discuss that Bill properly without knowing the bearing of the figures in the Unemployment Insurance Bill upon the liability which the country undertakes under the Pensions Bill. Would it be possible to get some estimate of what the expense will be, and what will be the bearing of the other Bill upon the contributions in the Bill now in Committee?

Photo of Mr Austen Chamberlain Mr Austen Chamberlain , Birmingham West

I am afraid I do not follow the question of my right hon. Friend. He is referring now to a different Bill If my right hon. Friend will be good enough to do so, perhaps it would be better for him to address his question to the Minister in charge of the Bill, and discuss with him what should be done.

Photo of Mr George Spencer Mr George Spencer , Broxtowe

Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is the intention of the Government to put down the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries Vote before the rising of the House?

Photo of Mr Austen Chamberlain Mr Austen Chamberlain , Birmingham West

I understand that that depends rather upon the conduct or attitude of the Opposition or Oppositions than upon the wishes of the Government.

Photo of Mr David Lloyd George Mr David Lloyd George , Caernarvon District of Boroughs

The right hon. Gentleman has not understood my question. May I ask the Minister of Health, who is fully informed upon the subject and who knows the bearing of the question which I put, whether it would be possible for the House to have information as to what will be the actuarial effect of the Unemployment Insurance Bill upon the estimates of the Government in regard to the Pensions Bill now in Committee, before we discuss the contributions?

Photo of Mr Neville Chamberlain Mr Neville Chamberlain , Birmingham, Ladywood

The Unemployment Insurance Bill does not affect the Pensions Bill. It has nothing to do with it. It is true that the reduced contributions which we propose under the Unemployment Insurance Bill may be taken into consideration when we are talking about the burdens and the effects on industry, but we have already settled the financial arrangements of the Pensions Bill by the Financial Resolution.

Photo of Mr Albert Alexander Mr Albert Alexander , Sheffield, Hillsborough

In debate the right hon. Member said that the benefits of the Pension Bill would be given for a reduced contribution from the employer and from the employé, leaving the House to suppose that the reductions made in the other Bill were made specifically for the purpose of the Pensions Bill, of which he is in charge. Therefore, does he not consider that the point is of very great moment, and that it is very necessary for the consideration of the Bill that we should have some information as to what will be the effect upon the pensions of the new unemployment insurance proposals?

Photo of Mr Neville Chamberlain Mr Neville Chamberlain , Birmingham, Ladywood

No further information is required. All the information with regard to contributions is already at the disposal of the House.

Motion made, and Question put, That other Government Business have precedence this day of the Business of Supply, and that the Proceedings on the Widows', Orphans', and Old Age Contributory Pensions Bill, and on any Private Business set down for consideration at a quarter-past Eight o'clock this evening by direction of the Chairman of Ways and

Means, be exempted, at this day's Sitting, from the provisions of the Standing Order (Sittings of the House), and that, notwithstanding anything in Standing Order No. 8, the Proceedings on any such Private Business may be taken after half-past Nine of the Clock.

The House divided: Ayes, 231; Noes, 124.

Division No. 251.]AYES.[3.52 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lieut.-ColonelDixey, A. C.Lynn, Sir R. J.
Agg-Gardner, Bt. Hon. Sir James T.Edmondson, Major A. J.MacAndrew, Charles Glen
Albery, Irving JamesEdwards, John H. (Accrington)Macdonald, Capt. P. D. (I. of W.)
Alexander, Sir Wm. (Glasgow, Cent'l)Elliot, Captain Walter E.McDonnell, Colonel Hon. Angus
Allen, J. Sandeman (L'pool, W. Derby)Elveden, ViscountMcLean, Major A.
Astor, ViscountessEngland, Colonel A.Maitland, Sir Arthur D. Steel-
Atkinson, C.Erskine, Lord (Somerset, Weston-s.-M.)Makins, Brigadier-General E.
Balfour, George (Hampstead)Erskine, James Malcolm MonteithManningham-Buller, Sir Mervyn
Balniel, LordEvans, Captain A. (Cardiff, South)Meyer, Sir Frank
Barclay-Harvey, C. M.Fairfax, Captain J. G.Milne, J. S. Wardlaw-
Barnston, Major Sir HarryFade, Sir Bertram G.Mitchell, S. (Lanark, Lanark)
Beamish, Captain T. P. H.Fanshawe, Commander G. D.Mitchell, Sir W. Lane (Streatham)
Beckett, Sir Gervase (Leeds, N.Fermoy, LordMoles, Thomas
Bellairs, Commander Carlyon W.Fielden, E. B.Monsell, Eyres, Com. Rt. Hon. B. M.
Benn, Sir A. S. (Plymouth, Drake)Finburgh, S.Moore, Sir Newton J.
Bennett, A. J.Fleming, D. P.Morrison-Bell, Sir Arthur Clive
Bentinck, Lord Henry Cavendish-Forestier-Walker, Sir L.Newman, Sir R. H. S. D. L. (Exeter)
Berry, Sir GeorgeFoxcroft, Captain C. T.Newton, Sir D. G. C. (Cambridge)
Bethell, A.Frece, Sir Walter deNield, Rt. Hon. Sir Herbert
Betterton, Henry B.Fremantle, Lieut.-Colonel Francis E.Nuttall, Ellis
Birchall, Major J. DearmanGates, PercyOakley, T.
Bird, E. R. (Yorks, W. R., Skipton)Gibbs, Col. Rt. Hon. George AbrahamO'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Hugh
Bird, Sir R. B. (Wolverhampton, W.)Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir JohnOrmsby-Gore, Hon. William
Blades, Sir George RowlandGlyn, Major R. G. C.Pennefather, Sir John
Blundell, F. N.Goff, Sir ParkPenny, Frederick George
Bourne, Captain Robert CroftGrace, JohnPercy, Lord Eustace (Hastings)
Bowater, Sir T. VansittartGreene, W. P. CrawfordPerkins, Colonel E. K.
Bowyer. Capt. G. E. W.Grotrian, H. BrentPeto, Basil E. (Devon, Barnstaple)
Boyd-Carpenter, Major A.Guinness, Rt. Hon. Walter E.Power, Sir John Cecil
Brass, Captain W.Hacking, Captain Douglas H.Pownall, Lieut.-Colonel Assheton
Brassey, Sir LeonardHall, Lieut.-Col. Sir F. (Dulwich)Preston, William
Bridgeman, Rt. Hon. William CliveHall, Capt. W. D'A. (Brecon & Rad.)Price, Major C. W. M.
Briggs, J. HaroldHammersley, S. S.Raine, W.
Briscoe, Richard GeorgeHannon, Patrick Joseph HenryRamsden, E.
Brittain, Sir HarryHarvey, Major S. E. (Devon, Totnes)Rawson, Alfred Cooper
Brooke, Brigadier-General C. R. I.Haslam, Henry C.Reid, Capt. A. S. C. (Warrington)
Broun-Lindsay, Major H.Headlam, Lieut.-Colonel C. M.Rhys, Hon. C. A. U.
Brown Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Berks, Newb'y)Henderson, Lieut.-Col. V. L. (Bootle)Richardson, Sir P. W. (Sur'y, Ch'ts'y)
Bullock, Captain M.Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel Arthur P.Ruggles-Brise, Major E. A.
Burman, J. B.Henn, Sir Sydney H.Salmon, Major I.
Burton Colonel H. W.Henniker-Hughan, Vice-Adm. Sir A.Samuel, A. M. (Surrey, Farnham)
Campbell E. T.Herbert, Dennis (Hertford, Watford)Sandeman, A. Stewart
Cautley, Sir Henry S.Herberts. (York, N. R., Scar. & Wh'by)Sanderson, Sir Frank
Cayzer, Sir C. (Chester. City)Hogg, Rt. Hon. Sir D. (St. Marylebone)Sassoon, Sir Philip Albert Gustave D
Cazalet, Captain Victor A.Holbrook, Sir Arthur RichardSavery, S. S.
Cecil, Rt. Hon. Sir Evelyn (Aston)Holt, Captain H. P.Shaw, Capt. W. W. (Wilts, Westb'y)
Chadwick, Sir Robert BurtonHoman, C. W. J.Sheffield, Sir Berkeley
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Birm, W.)Howard, Capt. Hon. D. (Cumb., N.)Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's Univ., Belfast)
Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. N.(Ladywood)Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hackney, N.)Skelton, A. N.
Charteris, Brigadier-General J.Hudson, R. S. (Cumberland, Whiteh'n)Smith, R. W. (Aberd'n & Kinc'dine, C.)
Christie, J. A.Hurst, Gerald B.Smithers, Waldron
Churchman, Sir Arthur C.Hutchison, G. A. Clark (Midl'n & P'bl's)Stanley, Col. Hon. G. F. (Will'sden, E.)
Clarry, Reginald GeorgeIliffe Sir Edward M.Stanley, Lord (Fylde)
Cobb, Sir CyrilInskip, Sir Thomas Walker H.Stanley, Hon. O. F. G. (Westm'eland)
Cochrane, Commander Hon. A. D.Jackson, Sir H. (Wandsworth, Cen'l)Steel, Major Samuel Strang
Cockerill, Brigadier-General G. K.Jephcott, A. R.Strickland, Sir Gerald
Cohen Major J. BruneiJoynson-Hicks, Rt. Hon. Sir WilliamStuart, Crichton-, Lord C.
Cooper, A. DuffKennedy, A. R. (Preston).Styles, Captain H. Walter
Cope, Major WilliamKidd, J. (Linlithgow)Sugden, Sir Wilfrid
Couper, J. B.King, Captain Henry DouglasTasker, Major R. Inigo
Craik, Rt. Hon. Sir HenryKnox, Sir AlfredTempleton, W. P.
Croft, Brigadier-General Sir H.Lamb, J. Q.Thompson, Luke (Sunderland)
Crook, C. W.Lane-Fox, Lieut.-Col. George R.Thomson, F. C. (Aberdeen, S.)
Crooke, J. Smedley (Deritend)Leigh, Sir John (Clapham)Tichfield, Major the Marquess of
Crookshank, Cpt. H. (Lindsey, Gainsbro)Lister, Cunliffe-, Rt. Hon. Sir PhilipTryon, Rt. Hon. George Clement
Curzon, Captain ViscountLloyd, Cyril E. (Dudley)Wallace, Captain D. E.
Dalkeith, Earl ofLocker-Lampson, G. (Wood Green)Ward, Lt.-Col. A. L. (Kingston-on-Hull)
Davies, A. V. (Lancaster, Royton)Looker, Herbert WilliamWarner, Brigadier-General W. W.
Davies, Maj. Geo. F. (Somerset, Yeovil)Lowe, Sir Francis WilliamWarrender, Sir Victor
Davies, Sir Thomas (Cirencester)Luce, Major-Gen. Sir Richard HarmanWaterhouse, Captain Charles
Dawson, Sir PhilipLumley, L. R.Watson, Sir F. (Pudsey and Otley)
Watts, Dr. T.Wise, Sir FredricWood, Sir S. Hill-(High Peak)
Wells, S. R.Wolmer, ViscountWoodcock, Colonel H. C.
Wheler, Major Sir Granville C. H.Womersley, W. J.Worthington-Evans, Rt. Hon. Sir L.
White, Lieut.-Colonel G. DairympleWood, B. C. (Somerset, Bridgwater)Wragg, Herbert
Williams, Herbert G. (Reading)Wood, Rt. Hon. E. (York, W. R., Ripon)
Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel GeorgeWood, E. (Chest'r, Stalyb'ge & Hyde)TELLERS FOR THE AYES
Winterton, Rt. Hon. EarlWood, Sir Kingsley (Woolwich, W.)Major Hennessy and Captain
Margesson.
NOES.
Adamson, Rt. Hon. W. (Fife, West)Hamilton, Sir R. (Orkney & Shetland)Ritson, J.
Adamson, W. M. (Staff., Cannock)Hardle, George D.Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Bromwich)
Alexander, A. V. (Sheffield, Hillsbro')Harney, E. A.Robinson, W. C.(Yorks, W. R., Elland)
Ammon, Charles GeorgeHarris, Percy A.Rose, Frank H.
Attlee, Clement RichardHartshorn, Rt. Hon. VernonRunciman, Rt. Hon. Walter
Baker, J. (Wolverhampton, Bilston)Hayes, John HenrySalter, Dr. Alfred
Baker, WalterHenderson, Rt. Hon. A. (Burnley)Scrymgeour, E.
Barker, G. (Monmouth, Abertillery)Henderson, T. (Glasgow)Sexton, James
Barr, J.Hirst, G. H.Shiels, Dr. Drummond
Batey, JosephHirst, W. (Bradford, South)Sinclair, Major Sir A. (Caithness)
Beckett, John (Gateshead)Hore-Belisha, LeslieSitch, Charles H.
Benn, Captain Wedgwood (Leith)Hudson, J. H. (Huddersfield)Smith, H. B. Lees (Keighley)
Bowerman, Rt. Hon. Charles W.Hutchison, Sir Robert (Montrose)Snell, Harry
Briant, FrankJenkins, W. (Glamorgan, Neath)Snowden, Rt. Hon. Philip
Broad, F. A.John, William (Rhondda, West)Spencer, George A. (Broxtowe)
Brown, James (Ayr and Bute)Johnston, Thomas (Dundee)Stamford, T. W.
Buchanan, G.Jones, J. J. (West Ham, Silvertown)Stephen, Campbell
Clowes, S.Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly)Sutton, J. E.
Cluse, W. S.Kelly, W. T.Taylor, R. A.
Collins, Sir Godfrey (Greenock)Kennedy, T.Thorne, G. R. (Wolverhampton, E.)
Connolly, M.Kenworthy, Lt.-Com. Hon. Joseph M.Thurtle, E.
Cove, W. G.Kirkwood, D.Tinker, John Joseph
Cowan, D. M. (Scottish Universities)Lawson, John JamesTrevelyan, Rt. Hon. C. P.
Crawfurd, H. E.Lee, F.Viant, S. P.
Dalton, HughLivingstone, A. M.Walsh, Rt. Hon. Stephen
Davies, Rhys John (Westhoughton)Lunn, WilliamWatson, W. M. (Dunfermline)
Day, Colonel HarryMacDonald, Rt. Hon. J. R. (Aberavon)Watts-Morgan, Lt.-Col. D. (Rhondda)
Dennison, R.Mackinder, W.Webb, Rt. Hon. Sidney
Duncan, C.MacLaren, AndrewWestwood, J.
Dunnico, H.March, S.Wheatley, Rt. Hon. J.
Fenby, T. D.Maxton, JamesWhiteley, W.
Garro-Jones, Captain G. M.Mond, Rt. Hon. Sir AlfredWiggins, William Martin
George, Rt. Hon. David LloydMontague, FrederickWilkinson, Ellen C.
Gibbins, JosephMorrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.)Williams, Dr. J. H. (Llanelly)
Gillett, George M.Naylor, T. E.Williams, T. (York, Don Valley)
Greenall, T.Oliver, George HaroldWilson, C. H. (Sheffield, Attercliffe)
Greenwood, A. (Nelson and Colne)Palin, John HenryWilson, R. J. (Jarrow)
Grenfell, D. R. (Glamorgan)Paling, W.Windsor, Walter
Groves, T.Pethick-Lawrence, F. W.Young, Robert (Lancaster, Newton)
Grundy, T. W.Ponsonby, Arthur
Guest, J. (York, Hemsworth)Potts, John S.TELLERS FOR THE NOES.
Hall, F. (York, W. R., Normanton)Richardson, R. (Houghton-le-Spring)Mr. Allen Parkinson and Mr.
Hall, G. H. (Merthyr Tydvil)Riley, BenWarne.