I will not go any further on the point, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, as I have already said all I wanted to say. Without traversing the ground which has already been traversed too much, may I just suggest, as I think I did on a previous occasion, that what has been referred to ought not to be the attitude of those who have the power? I do not want to labour the point, but surely we have got to raise taxes in some form or other, and I think it is generally admitted by, everyone—and they are quite sincere—that taxes must be levied to a large extent on those who have the best means to pay. But I want to ask my hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury if he will hunt in the archives of the Treasury for documents which have been referred to on a previous occasion. I am all for postponing the evil day in some of these matters, and I am all against taxing wealth while in the making. I think, too, it is a very, very great mistake to tax people in such a way that they will not save, because I am old-fashioned enough to think that saving is absolutely necessary to the welfare of the nation.

Suggestions have been made by Lord Maclay which seem to be well worth looking into. The Financial Secretary when he replies will probably make some reference to the matter, but I would like to put it into a very concrete form, because I want to confine my remarks within a very few minutes. The House perhaps will pardon me if I go into rather more detail with respect to Lord Maclay's suggestions. He held that you must never tax wealth in the making, because by doing so you destroy the motive of saving which is what you want to encourage. Perhaps the Financial Secretary will kindly look into this question. If he cannot find a document I shall be happy to ask Lord Maclay to send another copy, for I think the suggestions are worthy of consideration. Lord Maclay put it, for example, that in the case of a man who, after all debts and expenses had been met, left the sum of £100.000, say, the procedure that should be followed should be this: It is assumed that there are two children, and that each get £50,000. The Somerset House authorities step in and say to one of them, "You are going to have the equity on £50,000," and it may be to the trustees of the other, "You are going to have the equity on £50,000, but," they add " We are going to make an exchange with you; we are going to leave you £25,000 each to dispose of as you wish, and in exchange for the balance we are going to give you annuities on the basis of that balance so that when you die the State will receive half of what has been left to you." Lord Maclay's view was that we should not mind about the third generation, particularly as nobody ever saved for the third generation. Of course time, reasonable time and notice should be given to carry this out. Care will have to be taken that unnecessary hardship is not caused to the child, or the trustees, who still have to make a considerable sacrifice, but the matter could be arranged.

Lord Maclay's contention as to the third generation was possibly to impose a heavy levy of 50 per cent. By this means the whole of the National Debt, which has been considerably reduced since the time he spoke, 1919, will be paid off in 37 years. I do not ask that we should do anything quite so drastic as that, but I should like the Financial Secretary to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to look into the matter, and see whether, in the next Budget, if he and his colleagues are still on the Front Bench, it would not be possible to alter the Estate Duties which now come down on the individual very, very heavily, in the way suggested. A good deal has been said to-night about the unsatisfactory state of trade. Very little reference has been made to one aspect of it, and I am going to make some. I think one hon. Member on this side of the House referred to the heavy taxation as impeding trade and commerce. Figures are very deceiving, I admit, but as a member of the Mersey Dock and Harbour Board, may I say that in our accounts, which are made up to the end of June, the figures are very much more satisfactory than any person could have imagined. We have known that there has been an improvement in trade going on for some considerable time. We know that the docks have been more occupied with steel and other goods, that imports have been very considerable, although the imports of cotton are still most unsatisfactory as well as the price. We did not think that the improvement had been so marked. After, however, taking the receipts for dock dues, etc. for the two years ending June, 1912/13—generally supposed to be the boom year in English trade—and comparing them with the figures for 1923/24, after bringing down the rates for 1923/24 to the same rates as we levied in 1912/13, the reduction in the imports and exports of the port is only 7 per cent. less than during the year 1912/13. I am hopeful that we are going to adopt a financial policy which will not be liable to chops and changes, alterations here and there, or reductions here and there, but that we are going to have steady progress, leaving the business world satisfied, and though taxes are high that they are not going to be altered and new programmes started; and though we should have as much reduction of taxation as possible, that no radical change in the incidence of taxation is anticipated. So we shall see a steady improvement in trade.