Orders of the Day — County Courts [Salaries and Allowances].

Part of the debate – in the House of Commons am ar 14 Mai 1924.

Danfonwch hysbysiad imi am ddadleuon fel hyn

Photo of Sir Patrick Hastings Sir Patrick Hastings , Wallsend

This is a matter which was before the House as recently as last week. I cannot myself think that it would be the wish of the Committee that I should take very much time in discussing over again what in substance was, as a matter of fact, considered on that occasion. The Second Reading was passed without a Division, but there were certain suggestions made from this and the other side of the House in regard to certain Amendments. Perhaps I may briefly state what the Bill is designed to effect. It really falls into two parts. The one is to regulate the position and terms of the employment of the Registrars of County Courts; and the other is to benefit, and benefit very substantially, the position of the inferior officials in the Courts who now are grossly underpaid and whose terms of employment are onerous and severe. There is additional provision for pensions for these people in the sense that they shall in future be made permanent civil servants. The reason why this Resolution is necessary is, as the Committee will see, that Clause 9 requires a Financial Resolution to authorise the expenditure. It might, perhaps, be desirable that I should give some sort of idea of the amount of money which this Bill is likely to involve. Under the first part of the Bill, which deals with the superior officials, the appointment registrars, and other matters of that sort, it is hoped that there will be a substantial economy, amounting to something like £25,000. With regard to the second part, which relates to the minor officials whom it is intended to benefit under the Bill, there will be an expenditure in the first year of something like £79,000. That sum is represented almost exactly to the extent of one-half by the payment of immediate gratuities, in the circumstances which I explained last week, to men who are now long past their work, who ought to have been put on a pension system, and whom it is intended to place on a system under which they will receive gratuities of something in the nature of one or two years' pay.

I do not want to reiterate the fact that the Bill is one which is long overdue, nor the fact that it is a Bill which is almost passionately desired, at least, by the minor officials of whom I am speaking, but I desire to urge upon the Committee the fact that this has been a matter of arrangement. There are four distinct parties concerned in the arrangement There is, first of all, the Treasury, who have not been easy to please in the matter of providing the necessary money. Then there is the Lord Chancellor's Department, who have been responsible for the negotiations; and there are two associations, one representing the registrars, and the other representing the County Court clerks and other officials whom I have described as the minor officials. That agreement has been made between all of these four parties, and, the Government having been in negotiation with these four different classes of people, and an agreement having been arrived at, it is impossible to alter that agreement, at any rate to-day. Although, as I have already stated, the grievance of these clerks and minor officials has been one of the outstanding features of the negotiations, and they have shown great loyalty in the face of continual struggles, this Bill not having been introduced until years after it became necessary, owing to difficulties caused by lack of Parliamentary time, one realises that it is always possible for one individual, or more than one, to approach an individual Member of the House and say, "Cannot I get a little more"? My answer to that is that, unless we can get this through on the scheme which has been agreed, it probably cannot be got through at all. Therefore, I urge individual Members who may have been approached by individual clerks, or individual bailiffs, or individual registrars, if any cases of that kind have occurred, to accept it from me that this arrangement has been agreed upon.

I see in his place the late Attorney-General, who was originally in charge of this Bill, and I feel fairly confident—indeed, I am quite confident—that he will bear out what I have said as to the great difficulty of the matter, and the great debt which all people who will benefit really owe to those who conducted the negotiations. Inasmuch as my right hon. Friend made some observations on the Second Reading in which, I think, he described either himself or myself as a layer of cuckoo's eggs, may I say at once that I recognise to the full that the Bill is not my Bill, but is the Bill of my predecessors? I claim no merit in regard to the Bill at all. The negotiations have been conducted entirely by the people whom I have mentioned, very difficult agreements were made, and the only merit that I think we can claim is that we have been able to afford Parliamentary time for the introduction of the Bill. Subject to that, I trust that there will be very little discussion on this Resolution, and I would again urge upon the attention of Members in all parts of the Committee that this matter is based upon an agreement, which I trust they will not endeavour to alter.