The Ministry has been attacked from every direction in the course of this evening. Possibly it will he a little change if someone who has at least as much experience as anyone on the opposite benches gives the result of his experiences. I am the secretary of a society which lost over 600 men killed in the War and had over 2,000 of its members suffering either from wounds or bad health. I have been chairman of a war pensions committee for some years, and I had my own offices turned into the central recruiting office of the Cirencester Division of Gloucester. That being so, my experience has been at least as great as that of any of the hon. Members who have condemned the Ministry this evening in unmeasured terms. Let me say at once, as far as the personnel of the Ministry is concerned—whether it be the Minister himself, the Parliamentary Secretary or the staff at the office of the Ministry—I have visited them all personally, frequently; I have also frequently corresponded with them, and I have taken up something like 600 cases with them, and in every single case I have been met with the greatest possible sympathy. I am speaking of the Ministry as I find it, and hon. Gentlemen opposite can speak of it as they find it, but I wish to bear my testimony, which is perfectly independent, to the fact that nothing could exceed the courtesy, the kindness, and the promptitude with which the various matters brought by me before the Ministry have been dealt with. [HON. MEMBERS: "Agreed!"]

I do not mean to say that in every single case I have been satisfied with their decision, but I do say, that as far as the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary and the chief officials are con- cerned, nothing could exceed their courtesy, kindness and promptitude. While I did not agree with every decision they made, I will say this, that when I disagreed with their decisions, I visited the Ministry and had further communications with them, and I have always found that the cases concerned were just on the border line, and that very little would have turned the decision one way or the other. I want to go a step further, and to say—though in no offensive way—that I do not think criticism should be directed to the Ministry at all, but rather to this House of Commons which passed the various Acts dealing with pensions. No one in this Debate up to now proved that the Ministry has done anything against the law. Therefore, if we are dissatisfied with the results obtained up to now, the blame rests as much upon us as Members of this House as upon anyone else. It is perfectly useless for us to seek to divest ourselves of our responsibility by pitching into the Ministry.

It is said that the system is wrong. Let me point out in the first place that the system has not even been in universal application up to now. It has not been possible to cover the whole of England, Scotland and Wales with these new area committees. It is grossly unfair to condemn a system before it has been put into full working order. It is said that the Minister should not be bound by the letter of the law, but should exercise his own discretion. Supposing one were to go into a law court, and say to the judge, "You must not be bound by the law, but use your own discretion," the judge would at once reply, "If you are going to do it, you will have no law at all, and decisions will be given, not upon legal points, but according to the whim and fancy of the judge who hears the case." That is not the way in which we ought to deal with this matter. If the law is wrong, let us alter it. Do not let us seek to place the responsibility for ma own misdoings, if misdoings there are, on the Ministry. I do not say that all the cases brought before us in our various divisions are genuine. There are and there always will be, as long as the world continues, a small proportion who are not justified in the demands which they make. I am afraid that Members have quoted extreme cases, and that many of these cases, if closely inquired into, would be found not to be quite as genuine as they appear on the surface.

It takes a certain amount of courage to tell people who come to one with complaints, "This will not do." I myself on several occasions have listened patiently to what a man has had to say, and I have proved to myself that he is a thorough scoundrel, and I have threatened to kick him out if he did not go. I think some hon. Members should take exactly the same line and ask the man who makes the complaint to come and see them. That is what I do in every single case where I am dissatisfied. My division covers 188 parishes, and is, I think, the second biggest in the British Isles. But if the man cannot come to me I take a motor car and go to see him. I must confess that about 99 per cent. of the cases are really cases which need to be inquired into, but when you have pointed out what the law is, not what the whim or fancy of anyone else is, or what they imagine the law should be, out of the 99 per cent. the great majority are reasonable people who recognise that their case cannot be helped. You will get a small percentage of people who will try every dodge under the sun to see whether they cannot, as they call it, "best the Government." Remember this, that in a regiment the men are not all angels; at any rate, not all good angels. There is a percentage not as good as they might be. The men who try to make application for that to which they are not entitled are the men who make all the fuss, who kick up the rows and write to the newspapers, and those who are really honest, I have found as a rule, have very little complaint to make.

On occasions on which I have disagreed with the Ministry, I have, as I said before, either visited the offices or had further communication with them, and while there always must be a certain number of border-line cases, where it is hard to say whether the Ministry ought to come down on the one side or the other, in the majority of the eases the Ministry gave the applicant the benefit of the doubt. I think it is only fair that anyone who has had to deal with such an enormous number of cases as I have should give his experience. It may require a certain amount of courage to stand up for a Department which has been pitched into right and left in the course of this Debate, but let me say, in conclusion, as I said at the start, that I have found the Ministry carry out its duties with sympathy and promptitude, and an earnest desire to do the best possible for the men. If there is anything wrong, it is not with the Ministry, but with the House of Commons. The House passed the Pension Acts, which hon. Members now say are not operating as they should. Why should not those hon. Members bring in an amending Act, and let us have in front of us what they think should be done? Ministers are human and make mistakes. We in this House recognised that, and set up an absolutely independent tribunal over which the Ministry has no control whatever. If that tribunal gives a decision against the Ministry, the Ministry has to carry out that decision. I do not know any fairer system than that. If it is within the competence and wisdom of the House to set up a better system, it is up to those who make these complaints to show what they can propose which is better than what is being done at the present time.