Part of the debate – in the House of Commons am ar 25 Gorffennaf 1922.
Yes, but the hon. Member takes the opportunity, while doing that, of suggesting at least that there has not been a complete fulfilment of statements made on behalf of the Government, and I cannot allow that to go forth. The monies to be expended by the joint electricity authority will be monies they will invite the public to subscribe. They will not be monies voted by Parliament—it is quite true that in another Clause of the Bill certain local authorities may, under certain definite safeguards, subscribe—so we are not dealing here with the question of control of money voted by Parliament. When this Clause appeared in the Bill in another place it was minus Sub-section (4), at which perhaps hon. Members will look. The point was then raised by a Noble Lord, who took the same point of view as my hon. Friend the Member for Hampstead has taken, that the amount of the borrowing powers of the joint electricity authority ought to he stated in the scheme. It was to meet that that my Noble Friend proposed, on behalf of the Government, Sub-section (4), which says:
A scheme constituting a joint electricity authority shall fix with reference to the estimated capital expenditure of the authority the maximum amount which may he borrowed by the authority—
We thought that the point of view voiced by my hon. Friend had been completely met by that. On Second Reading, however, he and other hon. Members stated that that did not go far enough. I said I was quite desirous of retaining for Parliament
the last word in reference to this matter of the borrowing powers of the Authority, and I promised to consider whether words could be inserted in Committee to deal with the point. The hon. Gentleman did not tell the House that words had been inserted in Committee to deal with that matter. I should like to call attention of the House to what those words are. The remainder of Sub-section (4) reads as follows:
and the authority shall not have power to borrow any sums in excess of the amount so fixed, otherwise than for the purpose of paying off loans previously raised, unless authorised by an Order of the Electricity Commissioners confirmed by the Minister and such Order shall be provisional only and shall not come into force unless confirmed by Parliament.
So the way in which the matter stands is this. The original borrowing powers of the company will be defined in the scheme, which is subject to Parliamentary control by a special Resolution on procedure. As I explained in Committee, we thought it quite impossible to divorce the scheme, which will say what expenditure ought to be undertaken, from the borrowing powers. That scheme will have been the subject already of two inquiries, and possibly of a third. For the same reason which I gave in dealing with another Amendment, I am quite unable to invite the House to accept this Amendment, which would say that, having had two inquiries, and possibly three, you should then proceed by Provisional Order and have the matter referred to Select Committees of both Houses, with Parliamentary counsel, agents and witnesses, and the whole expense incurred over again. Therefore I must really oppose the Amendment.
When, however, you come to the second part, namely, subsequent borrowings, which has not been the subject of the same inquiry, I think there is no reason why there should not be a Provisional Order procedure. To that extent I made it clear in Committee, and I did, as my hon. Friend said, promise that I would consult with the Chairman of Ways and Means as to whether some Standing Order of the House might, be made operative to deal with the question which he had in mind. As I understand him, that question was that these special orders are exempted business, therefore they may come on at any hour, and unless hon. Members are put to the trouble and inconvenience of watching closely, they may find that these special orders have slipped through in their absence. I did consult with you, Mr. Speaker, if I may be allowed to say so, on this matter. I was in error in thinking that a matter of this description was within the purview of the Chairman of Ways and Means. The Chairman of Ways and Means, I am informed, deals with what T may call the more mechanical parts of the Standing Orders; but Standing Orders which involve the time of the House, and procedure of that character, are matters for the Government. I think I correctly interpreted the advice you were good enough to give me on this question, that I should take counsel with those who had the right to speak on behalf of the Government in this matter.
I am in a position to say this, with reference to the special Orders which set up joint electricity authorities and which, from their nature., are very important matters—matters not less than of legislative importance—that it is the intention of the Government to put those Orders down on the Order Paper at a time which will give opportunity for their discussion fully and freely by the House. We have a precedent, not very remote, as to how- these matters can be dealt with, in the case of the Burmese Constitution, which, again, was a matter of Resolution, and occupied the whole of a Sitting, when Amendments were moved and modifications made. I hope, in that way, the hon. Member will realise that I am not in fault at all.